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#4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Is it genuine or is it fake?

#4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Postby tractorboy » Mon May 08, 2017 6:03 am

Recently contacted by a collector who had acquired this model.
He was asking about information regarding the model as neither he nor the seller knew much about it.
Dear Rodger,

My name is Eric Slager. I’m a collector of Dinky Toys and Matchbox.
I found your name on the internet.
Recently I purchased a Triumph motorcycle #4 in copper metallic. Nor the seller or I were aware that it might be special.
It all seems to be original.
It is very hard to get information on this model.
Do you have any insights on how many are known or how rare it is.

Hope you can help me out. Sorry for any discomfort.
Thanks in advance.


I requested some photos to share with the forum which he kindly sent.
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I thought it would good to share and get some opinions.
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Re: #4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Postby Idris » Mon May 08, 2017 6:23 am

This variation is listed on Nick's 4c catalogue page. However, there are a large no. of fakes our there, and given that this example is mint, has an overlength rear axle, and I don't like the look of the riveted axle end, my initial reaction is one of extreme caution.
What is the provenance?
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Re: #4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Postby Tinman » Mon May 08, 2017 6:32 am

It should have the wire rims and tires the same as the Harley Davidson. This one has what looks to me to be the original Triumph wires and tires ... I've no Harley to look at for comparison and it's hard to tell just from the photo. However, besides the Harley wheels and tires, it also received a longer axle. The length of that axle could be correct but it looks just a little too long. Some measurements need to be made to determine if those are Harley wire wheels and Harley tires.
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Re: #4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Postby tjlglass » Mon May 08, 2017 7:31 am

Mintness of the model compared to the tyres and rivet is enough for me to say no.
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Re: #4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Postby Idris » Mon May 08, 2017 9:23 am

Not the World's best photograph, but the riveted end of the rear axle does not look good.
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Re: #4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Postby GHOSTHUNTER » Mon May 08, 2017 10:32 am

tjlglass wrote:Mintness of the model compared to the tyres and rivet is enough for me to say no.


My thoughts as well and that over long axle with a rather un-Lesney type end is of concern.

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Re: #4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Postby tractorboy » Tue May 09, 2017 9:13 am

Tinman wrote:It should have the wire rims and tires the same as the Harley Davidson. This one has what looks to me to be the original Triumph wires and tires ... I've no Harley to look at for comparison and it's hard to tell just from the photo. However, besides the Harley wheels and tires, it also received a longer axle. The length of that axle could be correct but it looks just a little too long. Some measurements need to be made to determine if those are Harley wire wheels and Harley tires.


I agree with Tinman - I tried to do a wheel comparison by merging 2 pictures
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and you can see that if you continued the Harley wheel around left bottom mudguard support the tyre edge would be further in towards the hub.

which matches the photo that Nick has on the 4C page, where the edge of the tyre appears to only come to end of mudguard support.
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Re Idris' comment about axle ends - not so sure there as I checked 3 of my Triumphs and their ends were similarly poorly formed
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Including the from wheel
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Like Ghosthunter says the long axle is unusual (but if you were going to fake a model why not then at least have proper length axle).

I will reply to Eric and see if he can provide more information as to the origin & seller information.
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Re: #4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Postby tractorboy » Tue May 09, 2017 9:30 am

Here's a copy of what I sent to Eric:

Good Day Eric,

Thank you for the photographs, which were very helpful.

I shared them with members of the Diecast forum and we discussed them.

As you may be aware this is a rare model and always causes excitement if it appears, especially one such as this in near mint condition.

In the discussions there were a few concerns/questions raised

The axle ends are poorly formed and un Lesney like.
The wheels & tyres appear to be regular Triumph ones and this particular variation, when it has appeared has had the Harley wheels & tyres which are smaller in size (9.5mm diameter).
The rear axle is very long, which is unusual.

Will all items, provenance is the key - if a model can be traced back to an original purchaser or from a trusted seller it really helps.

Would you be happy sharing some of the history of the model e.g. when & where acquired and from whom it was purchased.

It would great if you could also measure the wheels.

As Nick Jones' page says "They are very rare, but fakes are known to exist as well".

We enjoy it when rare models turn up but as a forum we are all too aware that there are people out there who after too keen to take advantage of our enthusiasm. Hence the need to really inspect models like this carefully.

I look forward to hearing back from you on your return from your trip.


Regards

Rodger
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Re: #4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Postby Idris » Tue May 09, 2017 6:36 pm

tractorboy wrote:Like Ghosthunter says the long axle is unusual (but if you were going to fake a model why not then at least have proper length axle).


It is a common failing amongst fakers (although, interestingly, some RW pre-production also suffer from the same issue).
I assume that it is either because they cannot get in close enough to rivet or crimp the free end or, more likely, they need to clamp the axle head in a vice before finishing the axle, something which would inevitably result in it being overlength.
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Re: #4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Postby Sir_Matchbox_96 » Sat May 13, 2017 9:41 pm

Hi!
Without giving a comment if it is the real thing or not, I think you are wrong concerning the wires.
From what I understand you say, the rare copper Triumph should have the wheels fitted from the (standard) copper Harley.

The model shown by tractorboy has the harley wheels fitted. I added a picture showing both wires + tires side by side and i'am pretty sure it has the harley wheels.

Greetings,
Linus
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