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#4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Is it genuine or is it fake?

Re: #4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Postby tractorboy » Sun May 14, 2017 3:34 am

Thanks Linus,

I have used your photo (left side) for a side by side comparison

Screenshot 2017-05-14 14.29.29.png
Screenshot 2017-05-14 14.29.29.png (394.76 KiB) Viewed 236 times


and an overlap

Screenshot 2017-05-14 14.30.20.png
Screenshot 2017-05-14 14.30.20.png (214.09 KiB) Viewed 236 times


would appear that you are correct.

I have yet to hear back from Eric
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Re: #4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Postby zBret » Sun May 14, 2017 9:01 am

Could be possible that a rear axle from a 66b Harley (which is longer in length) was used on this 4c Triumph?
Seems it would stand to reason that if a tray of 4c castings ended up on the 66b assembly line, were painted copper and then were subsequently fitted with the 9.5mm 66b wheels and tires, that they would have been fitted with the longer 66b axle as well.
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Re: #4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Postby matchbox_n_molars » Fri May 19, 2017 3:01 pm

The Harley tires are wider/thicker than the typical Triumph tires. If the Harley tires are forced into the Triumph casting the wheel/tire will not be able to smoothly spin because of friction against the casting.
I have a typical blue example with a Harley wheel just in the front position. That wheel won't spin at all unless you force it.
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Re: #4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Postby Tinman » Fri May 19, 2017 6:57 pm

matchbox_n_molars wrote:The Harley tires are wider/thicker than the typical Triumph tires. If the Harley tires are forced into the Triumph casting the wheel/tire will not be able to smoothly spin because of friction against the casting.
I have a typical blue example with a Harley wheel just in the front position. That wheel won't spin at all unless you force it.


This is true and was previously discussed in another thread. The Harley wheels are force fit and make for a lousy toy (when installed on the Triumph).

The longer Harley axle is a noted inclusion for the bronze colored Triumphs (along with the wheels & tires). What we don't know is if the axle on the model in question matches that of an actual Harley axle. I mentioned in an early post that I wasn't sure about the wheels and tires and that they needed to be measured to come up with a definite conclusion. Comparing photos is pretty good, but I'd like to see them measured to be sure without doubt. Same goes for the rear axle, it needs to be measured to make sure it's the same length as the Harley axle.

The axle ends are good enough and (already been mentioned) look like many Lesney done axle ends. The real way to make sure the model is genuine would be a paint test. If the model is real, the paint test is well worth the expense and will become the definitive provenance. Without a paint test, it will always be suspect by a certain percentage of collectors.
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Re: #4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Postby Tinman » Sat May 20, 2017 6:27 am

I forgot to thank Greg for his input and it's nice to see you posting again.
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Re: #4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Postby tractorboy » Sun May 21, 2017 9:28 am

I'm still awaiting a reply from Eric as to the provenance of this model.
I'll share some of the discussion here and see if that will prompt him to respond.
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Re: #4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Postby Rob » Sun May 21, 2017 10:27 am

This is a very interesting thread which I have really enjoyed reading and I also like the effort tractorboy has gone to to show the overlap and comparison photos. This thread demonstrates very nicely the value of this forum to all who use it and the combined knowledge that exists between the members. Here's to the forum serving as a great source of reference for many years to come.
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Re: #4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Postby tractorboy » Tue May 23, 2017 6:27 am

Just received a reply from Eric plus a couple of extra photos …..

Hi Rodger,

Thanks for your feedback.
Attached are 2 more pictures.
I compared the bronze one with the regular blue one I have as well.

The bronze wire wheels measure approx. 9.5 mm the blue wire wheels approx. 1.1 mm.
The bronze rear axle is approx. 3.5 mm longer than the blue Triumph axle.

The axles ends look the same for me on both models, cannot see any difference to be honest. Because the bronze one is longer it stands out of course.

I bought the model on Marktplaats, a local Dutch type of Ebay. Originally I thought I was bidding on a Harley Davidson due to the colour,( I used to have that model as a kid and wanted it back) and that the seller made a mistake describing it as a Triumph #4.
He was selling some other Lesney from the 1-75 series as well. After I noticed I was bidding on a Triumph I contacted the seller. He told me it was from a collection and as far as he knew all original. I then went searching on the Internet to see if there was a copper metallic version. There were 3 bidders, I got it for 33 euros. This was 2 months ago.
I collected Dinky Toys for more than 40 years, so I’m aware that anything that has value will be faked.

If you need more pictures, please let me know.
I’m just very curious if I was lucky to find a rare item.

Kind regards, Eric


IMG_4954.jpg
IMG_4954.jpg (34.38 KiB) Viewed 107 times

IMG_4955.jpg
IMG_4955.jpg (30.99 KiB) Viewed 107 times


I tried to do a search on Marktplaats to see if I could find the item & seller but unable to navigate (struggled to translate).
The wheels do look a tight fit - will ask if there is any movement.

I will ask Eric if he can tell us the seller as that might give some clues as to provenance.
For what it cost 33 euros - would have thought a faker would have been asking for more.
Any specific questions that need to be asked?
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Re: #4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Postby Idris » Tue May 23, 2017 7:09 am

tractorboy wrote:For what it cost 33 euros - would have thought a faker would have been asking for more.


Eric Jonkers is active on Marktplaats and sells in exactly the same way as he does on Ebay, i.e. interesting models at too-good-to-be-true prices.
Marktplaats does not have any facility for looking at sold listings (see here).
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Re: #4 Triumph & Sidecar in Metallic Gold

Postby fixer » Tue May 23, 2017 10:33 am

Idris wrote:
tractorboy wrote:For what it cost 33 euros - would have thought a faker would have been asking for more.


Eric Jonkers is active on Marktplaats and sells in exactly the same way as he does on Ebay, i.e. interesting models at too-good-to-be-true prices.
Marktplaats does not have any facility for looking at sold listings (see here).

I wonder if Roger has unwittingly bought from Eric Jonkers
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